Luc Vogels Interview, Part 2: Reef News Network Quizzes CoralCare Creator About Philips New Reef Light (FULL AUDIO + TRANSCRIPT)

Peter:
Okay. So you know another term that's thrown around a lot in this industry that I think might be a misnomer to a lot of people is the term ‘full ’. You talk about that at all. Do you consider this full spectrum? Do you consider that term? Not to be a fair term when you're really comparing it to anything? Do you have any opinion on that term?

Peter:
Yeah, it's indeed a marketing term. So, what we have is a broad spectrum. So, yeah, yeah. How could I explain it best? So we had some of the LEDs I mentioned. So like the royal blue LED, we call that a narrowband LED, which is a very narrow length of wavelength. So it's only between, roughly 440 and 460 nanometers.

Peter:
Okay.

Luc:
Well, if we look at a wide LED, it's actually the same blue LED with some phosphor on top of it. And that phosphor that actually transfers part of the blue light into yellow, and blue and yellow combined with a result in a white color. And then if you see that the light emitted from that LEDs spreads all the way from like 440 nanometers all the way to 700 nanometers. So that's in general lighting called ‘broad spectrum’.

Peter:
Okay?

Luc:
Nevertheless, in the hobby, some wavelengths were added to it to really claim a broader or an even wider spectrum. And that is by adding those additional LEDs like the N&U, and we call this an UV LED, but it's near UV on the order of four between 400 and 450 nanometers, and potentially even using red or far red LEDs. That would define a broad spectrum.

Peter:
Okay. All right. Interesting.

Luc:
And maybe we do say some of the things are valid for the hobby, like valid for coral growth. And for let's say, for the development of the animal, but also a part of this wide spectral range story is just purely how the color handling of the coral will be. How we perceive the goal and learning of the coral. And that has nothing to do with the coral itself. It's just how our eyes response to looking at our aquarium.

Peter:
Okay, interesting. All right, so we got the details. So you guys got a ton of LEDs in these. And one thing that's unique about your fixtures is they are actually square shaped. Most fixtures we see in the hobby now are some sort of rectangle or spread out. Is there any reason you guys opted to do a square shape like that? Does it do anything for coverage? Or, you know, was there any reason or is that just a totally arbitrary design choice?

Luc:
Yeah, I think that's an arbitrary choice. I think. Yeah, it's an arbitrary choice. There we see the typical sizes in an aquarium here in Europe have a depth of 60 to 80 centimeters, and then in multitudes of 60 - 80 centimeters, there are others like, a standard size is one meter twenty, one meter fifty, one meter and then two meter. So we work in quite a rectangular aquarium area.

Peter:
Okay.

Luc:
And yeah, then we also made an luminaire, which is, it's a bit rectangular, but it's okay. Looking from afar, it's almost a rectangular shape.

Peter:
All right. Great. All right. So let's continue on. Let's talk a little bit more about the lights. So, you know, on some of the marking material, you guys talk about the, you know, kind of natural spectrum, you spelled out all the individual LEDs, but, you know, overall for the average hobbyist, who doesn't know all the technical terms and stuff. What is it about your lights that make them, you know. I don't want to say better, not you know, I'm not going to say, ‘anybody's better than anybody’, but what makes your light different than the average LED? Why would somebody want to choose a Philips light for the health of their coral over XYZ product on the market?

Luc:
I think it's a proven spectrum. We really looked into what's good for coral growth. Next to that, I also highlighted that there is also a discussion about HOW TO for the consumer. How to highlight the fluorescence and the color running off a coral, these two need to be mixed, these two aspects need to be mixed. And the thing is, what we did and that is different to most other brands is that we mentioned we used over six different LEDs while we only allow a control of two channels. So we packed those LEDs together, we bundled them together in two groups. How we defined a method or a line between this, where the consumer is able to operate, but he's not able to steer the individual intensity of each LED separately, or each type of LED separately.

Peter:
So when you go so hang on one second. So when you go into the app to like set up a schedule for this, you really only have two bars to kind of choose from? Or do you have the six or seven channels that most people have with their lights when you go into the app?

Luc:
No, indeed, we only have two bars. So one set is intensity. The other one is color point.

Peter:
Oh, wow. Okay, and that's indeed something that at first some of the hobbyists in Europe have thought. ‘Okay, why did you do that? We want maximum flexibility? But it shows actually that the majority and the vast majority of the consumers really want proven spectrum, proven things and really does not want, do not want to harm their own corals because setting your percentage on your channels, improperly could really lead to reduced growth, reduced efficiency, reduced colorization. And we try to take that worry away by just simplifying the way the LED fixture is controlled. So we always try to find that optimal balance between coral growth, Coral- colorization and the consumer only has to define, ‘Okay, I like I prefer a more wide spectrum to normal blueish spectrum’. And he's able to set a color point there.

Peter:
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I've gone down the path of pulling my hair out trying to figure out, you know, seven different settings to play with and each channel and the percentages and you know, alright, I'm going to use so and so schedule but I'm going to tweak it to do this. I really think there's some merit in the fact that you guys are making the controllability of this light more accessible to the average hobbyist without them having to have a huge learning curve or go. You know, chase all this information down or anything else so, so it's really interesting. I'm excited to see you know, the app in the back and I haven't had a chance to play with it at all, but I'm excited to kind of get my hands on it and see it. Because it is, it's frustrating! Lighting is probably one of the most frustrating things for many people in this hobby. Because to understand the nuances of, you know, setting six different channels and the intensity and then the, you know, the intensity of the light, and then the color of that light and putting it all together. Is really a lot to ask of the average person that just wants to have a nice tank and you know, have good colorization and coral growth. So, I think that's really interesting that you guys took that kind of aspect and went with that road to take a lot of that guesswork out of it.

Luc:
Yeah, exactly. That was our purpose indeed, to take the guesswork out. We just mentioned, that PAR meter, and that meter is the only thing most hobbyists have. If you would really want to do a very proper selling of your light, you should also be able to measure the spectrum. And this is just simply a tool which, for the average hobbyist is too expensive to buy. If you would combine those two together a PAR meter and an inspectable meter. You'd be able, according to scientific data, to just mimic an almost completely natural day cycle. But yeah, it will be fairly difficult to do, and also requires a lot from the consumer. I really tried, we really tried to simplify it. It's a lot.

Peter:
Cool. Very cool. That's awesome. All right, so let's go a little further into the detail. So we got the fixture's details. What do we have for mounting options with these? Are they hanging kits or their arm kits available for them? Did you guys even really kind of go into that too much? Or are you, you know, allowing the third party market to develop mounting solutions for you more. So I believe they come with a hanging kit out of the box, right?

Luc:
Yeah, they come with a hanging kit out of the box. It's standard to, let's say, to two suspensions and wires, and then it hooks up to four holes in the luminaire. And we are still in the process of maybe, to look with third parties if you also may be going to provide a bracket or any other hanging solution. So I cannot say too much about this yet.

Peter:
Okay.

Luc:
The thing is you, we need to be aware of the facts , a passively cooled design so there's no fan and design and then to really make sure that those 170 watts of lighting doesn't influence the lifetime you need to have some weight in there just like a cooling surface. And this means that actually the light is a bit heavier than the average product, which also makes it difficult to make like a bracket directly hanging from the glass. I would not put seven kilograms directly on the brackets which are suspended by the glass. That, we cannot do that off the side of the glass, I mean if you have two sides you would suspend in two sides. It would be okay, but only from one side that fixture will be too heavy for that.

Peter:
And for our US listeners, not to cut you off. So I just looked it up. So for seven kilograms is 15 and a half pounds which is, that is quite a bit for a light single light fixture.

Luc:
So yeah, that's indeed the consequence of having a passive cooled design. While we really want to ensure that fairly long lifetime of this fixture. And so we ensure that this fixture, at least, we claim that the fixture has a lifetime of more than 25k hours. So on after that time, we call this in general lighting. Let's see if I see it correctly. La Tb 10 rule, which means that 90% of the luminaires after those 25k hour, still produce more than 80% of their original light output.

Peter:
Okay, all right.

Luc:
Which means that after the use of seven to 10 years, you still have a fixture which you can use above your tank, which is my opinion, a very long lifetime for the hobby.

Peter:
That is, yeah, lighting is such a huge investment. I mean, getting the most out of it is really important to a lot of people. So let me let me pause you there. Let's go back and let's talk about passive cooling because that is something that I don't know, personally. I'm sure somebody out there is doing it. I don't know any other lighting company that is doing it. So that means there's no fans. So these are dead silent, there's no noise. There are no fan ducts or anything to clean from any kind of salt creep or anything that might come from your tank. What was the idea behind? Why did you guys end up going with that? I'm sure that had to have something to do with technology you guys are more familiar with as a huge lighting company. But talk to, let's talk a little bit about that design. What it is, what it does and why you went that route?

Luc:
Yeah, I think it's a good remark to discuss. I think back to conventional lighting. What, one of the things, which wasn't that great is actually the performance and the reliability of the product. LED lighting itself, that LED technology can actually enable a lifetime which is five or ten times more than a conventional lighting we use for hobby. But, just having in light itself, so the LEDs itself, having that long lifetime while you use components like active components, like a fan, would typically need more maintenance, or do not have such a long lifetime didn't make a lot of sense to me. I thought, okay, if we make a product, I want to make a product which really, you're able to, just like you mentioned, as well, it's a very big investment, because you can really use it for years and years to come in your hobby.And another thing is I think it's very important to have stability. In the first weeks when you buy a lamp, you start playing around with the settings, but at a certain moment, you never, you do not touch it anymore, and you do not want to touch it anymore. And at that point, I do believe that it is important to have that stability for years and years to come. That's actually the reason why we chose the passively cooled lightning. There's no maintenance, and if you maintain it, it's just to get some of the salt stains off there, and you can do it just due to the IP rating, just do it with a washcloth, which is fairly easy to do.

Peter:
No, it's really, really interesting. So, the whole top half of that fixture is just a giant heatsink, essentially?

Luc:
Yes, correct. So the top half of it contains, just in the middle, a metal bar. Then on the outside, it's the drivers. So the drivers are integrated in the luminaire. And the top bar just acts as a heating, a body to distribute the heat. It's also a single block, the heat.

Peter:
So how about people that have canopies and stuff, do they need to make special considerations if you're running these lights because they're passively cooled inside a canopy. Should they have some sort of airflow, maybe fans put into their canopy themselves or?

Luc:
It depends a bit on the size of the canopy. So I also want my personal aquarium, I just have a canopy above my tank, and I run these lamps already there for years. It really depends a bit on the size of the canopy. If you really have a canopy, which is like five or four centimeters above the lamp itself, then there's no possibility for natural convection. And it really needs some natural convection. It doesn't have to be forced convection, like with a fan, but there needs to be a possibility for natural convection around the luminaire. Which means that you need some distance between the luminaire and the top part of your canopy. Other than that, No. What we always assume is that our water in our aquarium needs to be 25 to 30 degrees. And if you go above this, then your corals will die. As simple as that, we all know this. But the thing is, if you would claim that the ambient condition above your aquarium would be in the order of 40 degrees for instance, then it would be very difficult to keep that water at 25 degrees. So we can actually assume that in a canopy, the temperature doesn't go up that high actually. We made sure that on normal conditions and normal canopies, if you use for instance, the canopy with a temperature of 35 degree fixture just works fine. There's no problem there.

Peter:
Okay. All right. Excellent. All right. Good to know. So, what? And for the sake of moving things forward here, what, does the light fixture itself have any actual controls on it? Or is it 100% app controlled?

Luc:
It's, the fixture itself, we keep that as dumb as possible.

Peter:
Okay.

Luc:
So, we do that also on purpose. So what we did is actually, we split the controls from the fixture itself. And so if you are to mix generations, have new generations in the future, the control and the luminaire itself was split. So the luminaire just has a main connector to it, because the drivers are integrated there and a communication interface. That communication interface is a wire, to lead wire, which needs to be plugged into the control of that we supply.

Peter:
So they come with an actual physical controller.

Luc:
Yeah, so you buy a luminaire and the controller, those two are separate. So the controller can control up to four luminaires. And, yeah, we could go into details of the controller if you want.

Peter:
Yeah, let's talk about that because that's interesting. So it's a physical controller that has physical cabling from the light.

Luc:
Yes, correct. Okay, all right. And then, from that controller, you of course, need an interface to communicate to that. And there we have a large range of possibilities. You can control it via WiFi, Bluetooth, this is via an application on your phone or on your desktop, which is iOS, Android, Windows and the iPhone standard. You also have the possibility to use a USB connection, directly plug it into your PC. And last thing is also open it as two inputs for zero to 10 volt input. If you have for instance a third party Aquarium computer, you can also control the controller, and also the fixtures with a third party aquarium computer.

Peter:
And you guys have a zero to 10 volt control port.

Luc:
Yes, two pieces for both channels.

Peter:
Yep.

Luc:
So you can use any third party aquarium controller for that. And like I mentioned, the main thing which is new is that it's now app controlled. It's fairly easy to set up. We have some predefined schedules there. You can also interchange those schedules within your reef community. Yeah, some standard demo mode, presets if you want to quickly check something, all those things, all the features are there in our application.

Peter:
Okay. And you need the controller to communicate with the lights. The lights are not natively WiFi or anything, right? They have to be in that controller for you to communicate with them.

Luc:
Exactly, yes.

Peter:
If that controller becomes disconnected, will they run from their last known configuration in like a dummy mode? Or what happens if that controller becomes disconnected or failed?

Luc:
Yeah, what we did is, we are at that moment it actually goes into the safety mode, and it goes to 10% light output.

Peter:
Okay, all right. Very good.

Luc:
Previously in Europe, it went to 100%. But with this generation, we decided to change that to light at 10%.

Peter:
Okay, all right. Interesting. All right. So does power come out of the fixture too, or does power come from the controller.

Luc:
No the controller needs to be supplied separately.

Peter:
Okay, so yeah, you have two ports, I guess is what I'm getting at. Two cables that are coming out of the light, one for control, one for power.

Luc:
Yes.

Peter:
Okay. All right, great. Yeah, just trying to give people an idea in their mind being where audio only of what a fixture might look like hanging from a tank. So it's two cables coming out of it to go down. Alright, great. Yeah, where can we go from here? So yep, so you’re app control, you can do third parties, you can do the new coral view Hydros with their new controller and their wave engine products, you can do Apex GHL. So you got all the big ones covered, which is awesome. And, then anything that does zero to 10 volt. You get all your pre planned items in your controller, and the app and everything to set up. So you said the controller, you would buy one controller and then up to four lights. So that's a separate product from the lights themselves. Correct?

Luc:
Correct.

Peter:
All right. All right. So that's good to know. So because these are about to come out, so people need to know what they're looking for. Because I'm sure they're going to be going, people are going to go crazy buying these things. So let's get into it. When and where are these lights going to be available? I believe you guys are distributing them exclusively through CoralVue here in the US, is that correct?

Luc:
Yeah. So most of the marketing questions, it's a bit difficult for me to answer because this is not my expertise, but I think we will distribute them via CoralVue and Bulk Reef Supply.

Peter:
Okay.

Luc:
I think the date will be somewhere in the region of September.

Peter:
Okay. All right.

Luc:
Yeah. And the sales price I do not dare to say number at the moment.

Peter:
No, no, no worries. No worries.

Luc:
It's up to them to decide. It's not my field of expertise.

Peter:
All right, so let's talk about what's next. I know you probably, if anything, you're working on anything, you probably can't talk about it. But are there other products in the works to go with these, are there future plans for something else? Or are you guys really just in the aquarium space, kind of content with this product and that's where you're going to stay.

Luc:
Yeah, as always it's difficult to talk about this. And this, actually that, yes, we are working on, we are continuously improving, okay, which means that we are still developing our products, just like we did in the past. Yes.

Peter:
Okay.

Luc:
So if you look at maybe like, I might be also in the start of the discussion, you highlighted that it takes quite a while between starting an idea and really having a product. Which means that actually the last technical detail, I finished on this product was about 10 months ago.

Peter:
Wow, wow.

Luc:
And the other all the other things are just manufacturing and distribution. So you can imagine that we still keep going with investing, and also developing on this segment. And yeah, not allowed or able to say what we are doing. It can also be for different segments, such as professional segments. But we are still continuously working on this to really expand the portfolio and the business for it.

Peter:
Okay. All right, Excellent. Well enough said. So that at least gives us a hint that there could be more to come from Signify Phillips in the future regarding aquarium products. So that's exciting. Always exciting to you know, hope and wonder what might be coming. So yeah, I can't wait. Luc, I really appreciate you taking the time to come and join us and talk about these. These are really highly anticipated lights here in the US market. We've talked about them for years now, and to actually see, actually see the new generation of what you guys have changed and done with them is super exciting. But to have them as an option here in the market is going to be really interesting to see. The US market, we have a lot of options out here, and to have even more. There are very few options. I guess, I would consider controllability wise, the closest thing is Kessel in our markets. They're kind of a no frills, you know, kind of pick a color spectrum and go with it kind of thing. So they're probably the closest that we have to that. And then as far as your spectrums and stuff go, I don't really know enough about all the lighting out there compared to. But I think it's really going to be a unique product for the US market, and something that a lot of people are really going to take a look at, especially for the newer hobbyists that don't want to know. And you know, everything there is to know about lights and spectrums, and become some sort of engineer just to set a light color. So, that's really awesome. So any final thoughts or anything you want to share with us regarding the lights, the hobby, anything?

Luc:
Yeah, I think we didn't discuss one of the major points or benefits of coral care. I also forgot to discuss it actually with the coral. Light distribution itself of the luminaire which has a lot of benefits, and we also added some new features in the new generation. I think that that's interesting to quickly explain as well.

Peter:
Yeah please.

Luc:
The thing is, the luminaire is also quite big actually. The active surface of the luminaire is in the order of 35 by 35 centimeters, which is quite large compared to other brands. But it's still quite small, of course compared to T5 lightning.

Peter:
But for the US, hang on one sec, because I'm doing these calculations you're saying. So for the US market, this is about 1.14 feet or a little over 12 inches, so just give people an idea.

Luc:
Okay, okay, okay good. And the advantage of having a large surface, a large active surface is actually that you can achieve a very homogeneous light distribution. And we knew this from T5 lighting, and it's very important to have such light distribution to be sure that the coral colony can be able to fan out, and really have light all around its body. I know as the polyps within a colony can communicate with each other and also send back energy back and forwards to each other, so the coral doesn't need as much light as it needs on the top. But still it has a lot of benefits of having that light all around that coral, really being sure that it also shows those pastel kind of colors all around the coral, and not only on the top part of the coral. What you did there is that if you have such a large surface, it's always difficult to also make sure that the spectrum itself, so let's say that the LED colors itself are blended correctly. And there we used a very special patented technology, where we mix the light spectrum together, with the help of the light guide, then push it through passively. Sorry, passively, diffuse glass window to really have that flicker free, and also a very well blended spectrum in your aquarium.

Peter:
Yeah, I noticed something and reading the literature, that was one of the big things that you guys talked about a lot is people can get kind of that shimmery reef effect, but you guys went out of your way to make sure that it's not coming through the glass to throw out into the room in any capacity.

Luc:
Yeah, correct indeed. So by the help of the light guides, you still mix all the individual led colors together. But still, you want to point that light towards your aquarium. And by limiting that angle, but still using a large active source, you actually do not create shimmer effects outside of the aquarium, which also helps a lot in having a clear and not too, and resting picture of your aquarium needs to be subtle effect.

Peter:
Right, right. So is it safe to say, because again when you look at these lights, I don't know if they're exactly square, but they're kind of square. Are they directional in how you have to hang them, so they have spread side to side but not front to back?

Luc:
No, if you look in our recommended sizes, like we go in centimeters and you maybe calculate it back, but for a dominated SPS reef, we have say, okay, the coverage is about 80 by 60 centimeters.

Peter:
So 80 is 31 and a half inches by.

Luc:
Actually I have them over here. 23.6.

Peter:
Yep. 23.6 to 60. Okay, all right, that's a big area.

Luc:
Yeah, so for LPS and mixed reef, we say okay, it's a bit more. And that sort of coverage goes a bit up to 35 by 28 inches, or LPS reefs or mixed reefs. And yeah, that's indeed, you see there it's a somewhat rectangular shape, not that drastically, but.

Peter:
Yeah, it's hard to see from the pictures, like I guess some of these pictures I can kind of see. But the angle that all these you know marketing pictures are taken at, they look square until you kind of like move your eye a little bit. There's one picture I'm looking at right now that I can kind of see the rectangle shape in it, but you're right it's subtle. I mean that's only a handful of inches actually between you know, side to side and front to back.

Luc:
So and the last thing is what we now added in the new generation is also something, it's actually copied from a natural effect. So, we also added some clear areas in our diffuse glass plate. So, what we did is actually if you look in the ocean and the caustic pattern which is shown on the bottom of the ocean. The caustic pattern is like what would be called that shimmering effect and the dynamic effects on the bottom of the aquarium, which is. So at noon, the sun is the highest in the sky. And then also you have the most directional lighting directly to the ocean floor. And you will see a very sharp, caustic effect in the water. And this is actually linked to noon. So let's say the spectrum at that moment of the day. So what we do actually, so during the evening and the night, actually, the sun goes down, and the ocean is actually lit indirectly. It's not directly from the sun anymore, but it's actually from the atmosphere.

Peter:
Okay, yeah, sure.

Luc:
At that moment, you do not have any shimmer effect anymore, because there's no point source anymore. It's all indirect lighting. And that effect, we try to mimic specifically also in the coral care fixture. So when you select a little bit more, let's say a more natural daylight color, you will see that you will have more shimmer in your aquarium compared to when you would select a bluish color tone. It's just the simple effect that you cannot compare to a metal halide light combined to T5 light, but it's just a subtle effect so that the natural daylight colors, you have a little bit more dynamics in your aquarium compared when you drive it in a blue setting.

Peter:
Will it do that kind of effect through the course of the day, like a sunrise to sunset kind of effect where it adds that in, and then midday it's, or it takes that away for sunrise sunset, and midday it has that there or, is it kind of you choose one or the other.

Luc:
You know, you choose actually the color points throughout the day. And it's difficult to choose, at least in Europe and I guess also in the US, to choose a more natural color during the day. And hence therefore then you also have more dynamics. And if you go a bit further and it's further down today, you normally go a little bit for more subtle blue color. And then you also will see that the shimmer effects will fade a bit. So it's just integrated in the optical plate. So depending on the color temperature.

Peter:
All right. Very interesting. All right, Luc, anything else you want to add to that?

Luc:
No, I think we went through a lot of details.

Peter:
Yeah, I think we did. I mean, this was excellent. I really really appreciate you coming on this. We had everything from good just general hobbyist talk to really in depth technical talk about LEDs and lights and spectrums and stuff. So I'm really really excited. I think people are going to love hearing about this like I said, you know, it's really been an anticipated light. I believe CoralVue last year had some of them at the booth showing off and saying, You know, we have these coming next year, and people were lined up checking them out. I believe it was at ReefaPalooza in Florida. If memory serves me, right. But yeah, I can't wait to see these. I can't wait to get my hands on them. Try them, test them, feel them and see what they're all about. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's an amazing job you guys are doing. It's amazing that you're able to take your hobby, bring it to your job, and then produce something that you know is widely regarded in the EU as a premium light. And I'm sure it will soon be in the US. So you must have some level of pride every time you see or hear that you know this is expanding or growing or whatever the you know, the monthly market numbers are. That must feel pretty good knowing that, you know, you brought this to the hobby.

Luc:
Yeah, of course I really do indeed.

Peter:
Yes. All right, Luc, thank you so, so much for your time. I hope you have a wonderful day. It was great speaking with you. We'll follow up with you guys. Maybe we'll touch base with you again after the launch, and if you know, if any changes happen or patches and definitely in the future, if any new products come out, we'll get you back on the show. But I definitely appreciate you taking the time to spend with us today, and help our listeners get up to speed on this soon to be released Philips or. Actually it's still branded as Philips. Is Signify just an internal word for you guys.

Luc:
No. It's the name of the new company, but we still are allowed to use the Philips brand name. So it will just be Philips Coral Care

Peter:
Alright the new Philips Coral Care Gen2 LED fixtures are coming, coming soon at CoralVue, BRS, we'll be having them. Hopefully we'll get some pricing on them soon, and you guys will be able to get your hands on them. So Luc, I hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you again and take care. We will talk to you again in the future and see how things are going.

Luc:
Thanks for having me, it was a very nice talk.

Peter:
Take care. All right, there you have it. That was Luc from Philips or Signify, formerly Philips or still part of Philips or however you want to do that. Signify Philips is all there. Great, great interview again guys. I definitely know CoralVue has them. I believe BRS will have them as well for distribution here in the States coming up. So they should be, I believe in just a couple more weeks, they should be released and available in the wild and get your hands on them. If you are purchasing these, planning on purchasing them, are pre ordered or anything of that nature. When you get your hands on, please, please give us your feedback on them we'd love to hear from you guys that are actually using them.

Luc:
Yeah.